Transcript 0:00 Most of the advice aimed at men our age comes in two flavors. 0:02 There's the guy yelling at us to dominate, conquer, and never show weakness, and then there's the guy asking us to sit in a circle and perform our feelings on cue. 0:10 My guest today has spent 20 years staking out the ground in between. Tripp Lyrne is a coach, the host of the New Man podcast, and the author of This Book Will Make You Dangerous. 0:20 He's logged more than 10,000 hours coaching men, a lot of them guys who climbed the ladder, got everything they were chasing, and then woke up wondering why it all felt hollow. 0:28 I first came across his work back in 2016, and it stuck with me. What I appreciate about Tripp is that he doesn't sell a finish line. 0:35 He's more interested in what makes us stronger, what keeps us present, and what we have to let go of to actually move forward. That's the conversation we're having today. All right. Hey, Tripp. Welcome to the show. 0:45 Hey, Jonathan. Nice to meet you, and nice to be here, man. Yeah. I've been looking forward to this. 0:50 Um, so, like, you and I were talking a little bit offline, and I won't obviously have you dip into the archives too much. So you wrote a book a long time ago called The Big Game. Yeah. 0:58 That kind of evolved into what you, uh, what your most current book is, uh, This Book Will Make You Dangerous. So I wanted to start by asking you how 1:09 that, the original book that you wrote was back in, I don't know, 2016 when I came across it, and I think you said you wrote it much earlier than that. Yeah. 1:16 How you, you've evolved through that because, you know, that was 15 years ago and, uh, but a lot of the same thoughts come up in, in each of the books, but how have you evolved with your career and your coaching and just- Yeah... 1:27 give a little bit of that background so folks can get a sense of who you are. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm, I'm currently-- I've been coaching for 20, over 20 years, and I'm in a coach training right now, 1:39 and I'm back in, I wouldn't say beginner mode, but it feels like beginner mode in a lot of ways. And it's- Yeah... um, it's enlightening because there's a part of me that's like, "Ah, fuck. I really don't know much." 1:51 Like, I've got so much to learn, and there's so much to learn about- Yeah... this craft of coaching. It's such a, a, you know... It's like music. Like, there's always something to learn. 2:00 There's always something to, to grow and change in, in a fun way, like in an engaging way, not like, "Oh, I'm never good enough," or anything like that. So, um, but I got into coaching 2:11 through the door of men's groups and men's personal development and that kind of thing, and just being in that container of, of doing the work with other men in circles and that kind of stuff. But it was just like that, 2:22 doing that work and being with other men and being accountable to other men and say, "Hey, I'm gonna do this this week," or, "I'm gonna get this done by, by April," whatever, and actually getting it done was transformative for me and my life. 2:35 And I was kind of sitting on the pot and not really getting much done in my life, uh, where I wanted to be. 2:41 And th-that, having that accountability, being in a, in that, an environment where I got tired of telling my own story and not following through really shifted, and then coaching was a natural step into that. 2:54 And so over the years, just kind of honing my craft and honing my approach to coaching is, is still kind of rooted in, in that place of what is it that you really want to do? What is it that you're here to become? 3:05 What do you want to express? What do you want to experience in this lifetime? There's more to life than chasing money and status and significance. Th-that stuff's important to us, but there's something more. 3:14 And so I'd, I'd say my work has just gotten deeper and more to the essence of the person. Who are you really versus who do you think you need to be? Uh, who do you think you need to prove yourself to be? 3:24 Like those kind of questions that, that I tend to move well beyond those, those questions, so... Is that kind of how it started? 'Cause I- if I r-remember, and your background, um, 3:37 you know, you, you had achieved a lot of success early on, and the co- question kind of arose of like, "Okay, well, what do I do now? I'm not necessarily fulfilled. I have the money. I have the success." 3:49 Is it, are you kind of gone beyond that to be more kind of experience-oriented, or what's the evolution? 3:53 Well, I think that, I think that that's, that's a common theme in people that I work with, whether they are, uh, actually experiencing that or they can see it coming. So I might work... 4:04 I've actually worked with some younger guys who are like, "Hey, I watched my dad make this mistake. 4:08 I watched, I watched other men in my lives older than me make this, get on this path and just grind and grind and then feel empty at the end of it. So I don't wanna do that." 4:17 Um, uh, that's a, that's a very common thing to get to a place where you thought like, "I just thought it was gonna be different here. I thought I was g- not gonna feel empty. 4:26 I didn't think I'd feel trapped or drained or bored when I got to this place. I thought I was gonna feel something else." And so I, I don't see it necessarily as a failure. 4:36 I see it as a necessary part of our development. You, you, you kind of finish that level of the game, and then it's like, okay, a new screen appears, like what's next? 4:46 And a, a lot of us might be afraid of that and just wanna keep playing that game, and we stay stuck there and, and we're not happy, we're not fulfilled there. But there's also an opportunity to say, "Hmm, what's next?" 4:57 And so it's about going deeper into that and what is it that we really want. How do you, how do you answer that question? Are these identities that men are kinda dragging around, um, what are... 5:09 How do you kind of let go of some of that? What's the, uh, thing that men need to let go of, especially in midlife, that is holding them back from that growth? 5:18 Well, I think just to recognize what did serve us, you know, what did help us. It's really easy to get to a place in our development and then l-look in the rear view mirror and wanna criticize it. It's like- Oh... 5:33 "Oh, doing that, that's stupid. That's so beneath me. It's so shallow." And it's like, well, it's like, uh, it's like criticizing the first three steps on a ladder. It's like you needed those steps. 5:42 You needed those steps to get to where you are so that you could have the perspective that you have now. 5:46 And I'd much rather integrate those parts of us and utilize them, especially if somebody's learned how to create financial wellbeing or create resources or create community or whatever it is. 5:58 Like, it's like let's leverage that so that we can use it going forward. But to answer your question, there is a deeper sense of identity. 6:04 And until we start to kind of recognize that it's not all of who we are, it's somebody that we can step into at any given game. Just like when you go home for the holidays, you have a certain identity that you put on. 6:16 When you're hanging out with your buddies, you've got a different identity that, that you, that you put on. There's, we kind of flex and flow through these different identities, and some are more concrete. 6:24 Some are more like, "No, this is really who I am." But after a while, we might begin to feel like we're outgrowing those identities and they no longer service. They're, they're no longer who we really are. 6:36 There's more of us that wants to come through, and that can be really scary. Like, that can be a really difficult time, and it can feel like an existential death. 6:45 And, um, but I, I think that moving through that period in a way that's welcoming and recognizing there's something more on the other side, not necessarily more, like more money or more status or more like you're, you're gonna get more recognition necessarily, but there's just more to us than that. 7:03 And if we look at our lives through the lens of that we're writing a book, is this where we want the book to end? Is this the last chapter? 7:11 Like, I got to this place, I hit this place in my 30s or 40s or 50s, and then that was it. Or was there another adventure? 7:17 And I think when I-- most of the people that I've talked to, it's really scary, but there's like, "No, there's more. 7:23 There's more to this adventure, and I, I-- it might be a little uncomfortable here, but I'm willing to move through it." How often do you see that kind of shift in, in midlife? 7:34 So I, so I think one of the things that, a common thing that I see with, with my clients that I work with in, in training is they kind of, you know, 7:44 in their early years, like 20s, 30s, it's kind of like the world is my oyster, and then all of a sudden, like that game Pong, I think it's called, where the ball is bouncing back and forth between the two walls. Yeah. 7:55 Um, and you, that's how you kind of like feel like when you get to midlife 'cause all of a sudden you start coming to the realization that doors are closing. 8:03 It's not, the world isn't necessarily your oyster anymore, and so do I shut down and just do status quo, or what's, what's the alternative? And I think it, the easy one is to be the shut down and, and just coast. Mm. 8:17 But, um, is that something you notice on, in the men that you coach? I certainly notice that within myself. I can feel that gravity. 8:27 I'm in my 50s now, and I can feel that gravity of just like, just coast, just, just glide from here. And, and I can appreciate that. It's very different. When I was, uh, in my late teens and 20s, like, I was on fire. 8:44 Like, I just- Yeah... uh, it was unstoppable. If I set my mind to something, it was gonna happen, and I'm in, in a very different state now, and I can just feel that like, oh man, just kick your, kick your feet up. 8:55 And I think it's important to recognize that we live in different seasons throughout our lives, and th- the idea that you would somehow still be the guy you were in your 20s is just a recipe for disappointment. 9:07 But there is a question like, well, who am I now at this stage of life, whether I'm in my 40s or my 50s? And I think there's an opportunity to live into a bigger question. 9:16 So in our 20s, it's kind of like, what can I prove? Like, who am, like, what can I be in the world? Like, I've, I've got so much horsepower. How much horsepower? Let's see. Right? 9:25 How many women can I be with, or how much money can I make, or can I achieve my goals, or can I have six-pack abs, or whatever it is. There's this kind of like, let's see what I'm really made of. 9:35 And then ultimately, we go through different seasons, and, and a season that we find ourselves at later on in life is more oriented towards meaning, more oriented towards something that's what's beyond us. 9:47 What's, what's bigger than me? And maybe what can I contribute, or what can I teach, or what can I give? 9:54 Those questions are very different than the ones we had in our 20s, and we might need to get out of our own way and start to ask those questions. 10:02 But the guys that I find that are having the biggest problems at that stage are the ones that haven't quite discovered those questions for themselves yet. 10:09 And it's different for everyone, but they tend to be in that, that place of, yeah, what's meaningful, what's purposeful for me here, and it's less about, you know, look at me and how, how, how big I can be. 10:21 How much of that is having to make a choice? So one thing I think about is it's very easy, like right now, like defeatism is very, is very easy, right? It's, it's the easy default on life. It's like, okay, well, 10:36 every- everything you read in the news is, is negative and bad and like, ah, the, the sky is falling. But, but you also have the choice of optimism and abundance. 10:44 How much of just that second half move in life is a choice, like moving from those, those seasons or, or, and how do you make that choice? 10:55 Is it, uh, is the question like how do we move from defeatism into more of an empowered state? Or I wanna, I wanna understand your question a bit more. 11:03 Yeah, no, it's-- I was using that as an example, like the easy default on things. Like the easy default on life, like you mentioned, is to kind of coast. 11:10 But, um, at some point when you get older in midlife, you have to make a choice, right? 11:15 To, okay, do, is coasting the option, or do I wanna go deeper and figure out what, you know, find that kind of meaning and purpose, um, in the second half of this, the next season? And how do you make those choices? 11:28 Like how do men get started in that from being stuck? I think, I think a big part of it is just coming back to the question of what do I actually want? What do I want more than protecting and pleasing and proving? 11:44 What do I want more than comfort and the illusion of safety and certainty and making sure everyone thinks I'm impressive? Though that game is built within us. We're hardwired for that stuff, and- 12:03 What I've found is that the, the-- when we start to r-really ask the deeper questions of what do I want, what do I want from my life, what story do I wanna create for myself, what experiences do I wanna have, that's what I spend a lot of time with clients. 12:17 I mean, I've got several clients that just email me every morning what do I want from my day. As an e- like, those are the reps. Like, we're just gonna, like, what do you wanna eat for lunch? 12:26 What do you-- how do you wanna navigate the six-- you, you got three more meetings than you need to have on your calendar, how do you wanna navigate that stuff? 12:32 Like, just getting into that rather than reacting and being asleep at the wheel. And so waking up to that, that question, what do I want, pulls us out of drama and victimhood, and it puts us into a creator mindset. 12:45 So I think just starting there and learning to answer that question, it can be scary. It's like, "Oh, maybe I don't wanna be in my marriage anymore. Maybe I don't wanna be in this career anymore." 12:55 It, it can be confronting. Um, those are huge, like, big examples of what c- like, like I think are the big fears that if I really tap into what I want, it's gonna blow up my life. 13:04 There's this really big fear that we have. But for a lot of us, it's usually much more mundane about just what do we want for our experiences. 13:11 But I would say that anybody who isn't tapping into that deeper desire and, and understanding of what they want, well, then they're not at the wheel in their life. So those bigger, bigger questions like, okay, 13:24 maybe I don't wanna be in this career anymore, maybe I don't wanna be in this marriage anymore, which are, like, huge- Yeah... things to, to think about. Maybe those aren't necessarily the answers, it's just what your 13:36 default goes to, but maybe it's something deeper or hidden that you need to kind of uncover that is truly, like, stimulating that, that thought. It could be. It's also just takes effort. 13:46 It's a lot easier to go through life bouncing around like a pinball. Like, we never have to be told what to do. We can just react. I'd love to... I could just get into that. 13:57 I've got clients that always kinda need something from me. I don't have to steer my life. 14:01 I don't h- I could just show up and be there for my clients and my family, and then months and years go by without me planning something that I wanna do. 14:09 So I can speak from firsthand experience that it takes effort and discipline to come back to, okay, the li- life is moving around me and people want things from me and the world wants stuff from me, but what do I want? 14:22 And it takes effort. And I, I, I'll admit, I'm lazy when it comes to that. Like, well, cool, an email came from, from a client. Let me answer that. 14:30 Instead of, hold on, let me s-spend some time figuring out what it is that I wanna do. And does that go into... In Dangerous, you talk a lot about, um, kind of experience over outcome, so 14:47 that answering that question, what do I want, a lo- is a lot of that just, like, what experiences do I want now versus just, like, the outcomes that I need to have in the, in the future? I think so, yeah. 14:56 I mean, I, I was having a conversation with somebody just the other day, and he, he's, he's really well-paid. 15:04 He has a, a, a job that on paper looks amazing, and he's got a great paycheck and a great title, and he hates it. Like, it's, it's just killing him inside. 15:14 And he started this project with his sons, and he's, they're using AI to develop an app and a product. Like, they're 3D printing an app. And he's lit up. Like, he can't... He's, like, not sleeping. 15:25 Like, he's thinking about how much fun this is. And I was like, what if we could just use that as a compass heading? 15:33 How could we integrate more of that experience where there's just this flow of energy and interest and curiosity? 15:41 I've heard it said that burnout isn't because we are working too much, it's because we're out of alignment. He has, like, zero resistance in this other project with his sons. He's willing to stay up late. 15:52 He's-- It's, it's just easy for him to put his energy there, whereas he's pulling teeth to show up in his day job where he's getting paid so much. 16:00 And so I think for a lot of us coming back to the experiences we wanna have, like, we don't know what the job will be, but could we use the, uh, the compass heading of where you just feel like you're more in that sense of flow and that sense of ease and that sense of just, there's just this aliveness that comes when we tap into it. 16:19 But for a lot of us, it's like, no, I need the vision. I need to know exactly how it's gonna work out. I need to know what the title is. 16:25 I need to be able to tell my friends that I've got this job and it's impressive, and we're not willing to just kinda allow that experience to help us find the next step. 16:37 S-say a little bit more about the, the burnout and out of alignment piece, 'cause I think that makes a lot of sense. But, uh, like, how do you identify it? 16:48 I guess some men could actually just be burnt out, but others think they're burnt out, but it's really like they're out of alignment. 16:55 What-- In your experience with coaching, what have you seen that identifies true burnout versus out of alignment? I wouldn't-- I don't know if I'd separate them. Okay. Right? Like, if, if we really think about, um... 17:10 I mean, we could get into a longer discussion about that, but for a lot of us, we are having to grind and push ourselves into things. Not, not always for the wrong reasons. Maybe we have responsibilities, et cetera. 17:24 But we're, we're also not listening to the part of us that says, "Hey, wait a second. There's something over here. There's something that else for me." 17:32 And wh-when we don't acknowledge those parts of us or the gifts that we have to give or the thing that wants to be expressed, then that internal friction shows up. And it's like we've got a tether against us. 17:43 We're kind of pulling... Well, you're a trainer, right? It's like the, where if you wrap the rubber, the, the big band around you, you start to run against it or you're pulling the sled. Yeah. 17:49 It's like, it's just a lot freaking harder. And it's not harder because, uh, we're doing too much. We're-- It's, it's harder because we're just out of alignment. 18:00 We're at-- We're not doing the thing that we're really called to do. We don't have the wind at our back, essentially. 18:05 I'm not saying life will always be easy, that th- i- when we do figure out what it is we wanna do, there will be challenges. That was true for me when I became a coach. 18:13 I felt called to become a coach, and it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to, to overcome. It's really hard to do that. So I don't wanna create this... 18:22 I don't wanna perpetuate this idea that when you find your calling or your passion or your purpose or whatever you wanna call it, that life gets easy and money just starts coming in and all the things. 18:30 Just, like, it's just, it's not that way. So- Right... uh, but, but it does feel like, yes, this feels right. This feels right. 18:38 And then what I've found is, like, putting the time and the energy into things feels easier than not doing that. Okay, so s- I wanna switch gears for a second. 18:47 I want you to explain something, 'cause I thought it was, like, one of the cooler concepts in, in the book, the hunter versus prey mentality. So, um, can you tell folks what that is in, maybe in the context of midlife? 18:59 Yeah. Well, the, the concept as I explained it in the book was that, um... I'm trying to remember how, how I said it. But, uh, you know, if, if, if we look at certain animals that, that roam the Serengeti, 19:13 the impalas and the whatever. I, my Serengeti- Mm-hmm... uh, ecology's not, not very strong today. [laughs] But, uh, they have the eyes. They have eyes on the side of their heads. Like, rabbits do this. Yeah. 19:23 And, you know, those are prey animals. They, they need to see all of this stuff because their entire life is essentially about looking for danger. Seeking- Right... look, where is the danger? 19:36 Whereas when we look at prey animals, their eyes face directly ahead. They're focused on what they want. They're focused on going after a specific thing. They have this h- ability to focus. 19:47 And so I ask the reader to look in the mirror and tell me where their eyes are. Where are they located? Are they on the side of the head or are they on the front facing ahead? 19:56 And the call is essentially, like, let's stop acting like prey and start to recognize that we're wired to move forward and towards what we want. Most of us are playing not to lose. 20:07 We're looking for the dangers and the threats all the time, and we're like, "How do I avoid this? How do I avoid that? I wake up every day, how do I make sure I don't do anything uncomfortable? 20:15 How do I make sure I don't do anything that's gonna screw up my money? How do I make sure I don't look like a moron?" And that's a day for us. 20:21 Just getting through life without being uncomfortable or insecure or, you know, looking like a moron. That's a, that's a day. Typical day for us. And so we never ask ourselves, "What is it that I wanna move towards? 20:34 What is it that I wanna build? What is it I wanna create? What is it I wanna, uh, achieve in that regard?" And that's, that's the call. And so as we move into midlife, 20:45 I might still be stuck in an old game, or I might be in a place, and, and this is, this is true, I call them the fragile rich guys. 20:51 They're the guys that told themselves that once they start- made a certain amount of money, that they'd give themselves permission to do X, Y, and Z in their lives. 20:59 But now they're, they're like, "Well, that takes energy. 21:02 That would be uncomfortable" or, "Oh, I couldn't go backwards financially 'cause that would be a big deal" or "M- what will my friends think of me if they saw me do an A, B, and C?" They get fragile. 21:11 They actually do less with their lives because of, of that state, and I think that's kinda natural as we get older too. We just kinda wanna calcify and get rigid and, and stuck in that regard. 21:23 And so yeah, the fragile rich guy, a- and we can all be fragile without being rich, but it's, it's going to play not to lose versus let me move towards what I want. Right. And that, it makes me think of, um... 21:38 Yeah, so as we get older, it's much easier to play it safe, right? But it makes me think of, um, kind of 21:46 retirement in a sense that, like, it's a bit of a interstate daydream in the sense that, okay, well, retirement's here and that's my goal and I just need to hold on until I get there. 21:58 But is it really, is that dir- daydream really as great as it's meant to be to where it, it's holding you back now? I, I've had several 22:06 men that I work with and friends just that's kind of like their mentality now, you know. It's like, okay, well, the only... 22:13 You know, it's 15 years away and the only talk is retirement or everything kind of revolves around retirement. Yeah. It's like, okay, well, what, what about now? Mm. Um, have you... 22:22 What are, what are your thoughts on that aspect? Yeah, I call it the finish line mentality. It's, it's, it's my life will finally begin once I get to this place. 22:30 And unfortunately, it's like we keep moving that finish line, the, whatever it is. And the reason why is we're unconsciously expecting ourselves to reach what, uh, one of my former coaches, Phil Stutz, calls exoneration. 22:44 We're expecting that we're gonna finally get to this place where there's no more uncertainty, there's no more pain, there's no more risk, there's no more of the uncomfortable stuff. 22:55 We have this belief, like, we put people on a pedestal. It's like, "That guy's made it, man." Or, "Man, when I, when I, when I make it, when I hit this number, I'll be set." Like, there's this, I believe, like we... 23:05 He calls it the velvet rope section of life. And everybody's different. Everybody's different. 23:11 Maybe it's once I get married or once I, you know, reach a certain body fat percentage or once I got a certain amount of money in the bank or once I get to a certain age, whatever it is. 23:20 But there's this idea that once I cross that line, I'll finally have permission. I'll finally be safe. I'll finally, I'll finally be set for life, whatever that means. 23:29 But we get there and we realize we just have new problems. We may not have the same problems, but we do, we do have some new ones, uh, that come along with the territory. There's no escaping that stuff. 23:38 And that's a big bummer, and I think that's a, that's a big driver of the midlife crisis, is we start to realize there's no escape, that we're just going to continue to find new problems. 23:49 And that's a r- That's, that's a real tragic place to get to if you've bought into this dogma that we're going to finally be free and escape this stuff once and for all. 24:01 It's a lot easier to learn that tough lesson early on- And then find your freedom elsewhere, your freedom being that I'm free to be whoever I want. 24:10 I'm free to, to live the life that I actually want instead of hoping and praying that one day I'll be given permission. How much of that is, is fear-based? All of it. [laughs] Right. 24:27 Well, because I, I'm asking mainly because I, I, I mean, I've, I've struggled with this myself. It's like- Me too... okay, well- Yeah... it's super easy to play the safe game. 24:38 But, but the hard thing is, okay, oh, well, I started this podcast or, um, or like I'm in the middle of building out a gym concept, you know? And, but it took me a, a while in midlife to realize that 24:52 I can still do stuff and be innovative and take on risk and challenges because I started thinking about it as like, do I really just wanna coast and then hope everything works out in retirement? 25:06 Like, what if, what if something happens with my health or whatever, you know? But, but not living now in the kind of way I wanted to made me realize, well, it's not worth it. 25:18 Like, like the wait is not worth it to hold back now, I guess, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think there's this, this... I think it's about being in the present state and appreciating what we've got instead of buying into 25:34 m- uh, life hasn't started yet. Like, life will begin then. Right. There's this idea, life will begin at retirement. 25:41 That was kind of the, the gist of what you were saying, or life will begin once I get married, or life will begin once I get a real job, or life's gonna begin... 25:49 There's this, there's this thinking, but now I'm just kinda in the waiting room. I'm waiting to live my life. 25:54 I'm waiting for that permission to do whatever it is, or I'm waiting for the, the conditions to be right, and that waiting is what kills us. 26:03 We're, we're, we're focused on what's missing or what's not right yet, or I'm still feeling insecure. I must not be ready. I still feel it's not quite bulletproof, this idea. 26:12 It's like, oh, I must not-- I gotta wait for that. Like, that is the trap. Instead of now. Now, what can I start to do now, even though it's not 100% ready? And I'm not saying you gotta take drastic action. 26:24 In the book, I talk about just taking very small steps. 26:28 Um, but that, that waiting and this belief that there's this perfect time and the perfect plan that's just waiting, and you're just not there yet, is a huge trap, and it's, it will-- The cost is it takes years of our lives that we'll never get back. 26:42 Yeah, and so I work with some retirees too, and [chuckles] a lot of it ends up being not probably like they thought. You know, it's like going from one doctor's appointment to the next. 26:54 And then I think of myself like that, I'm like, 26:57 how much am I gonna re- how much is there gonna be regret if I think of my future self because of retirement is- isn't what I thought it was gonna be, or this chapter of life isn't what I thought it was gonna be? 27:07 Am I gonna m- look back and regret stuff, or am I going to look back and be like, "Man, I'm glad I did that then"? Mm. Yeah. 27:13 I had a conversation with someone the other day, uh, and it was really appreciating, like, that for him, 27:20 m- money, like for all of us, but for him, money was this real big source of safety and security, and h- he's of the belief that he needs to have a, a lot of money comparatively for his retirement, okay? 27:34 And nonetheless, he's, he's got kids at home, and they're, they're only gonna be in the house for a few more years, and then they're off to college. And so I asked him, I was like, "What would your 80-year-old self pay?" 27:47 The guy that's gonna have these millions of dollars, what would he pay to be able to come back to this time right now to be with your sons? 27:57 And he broke down crying because there was no amount of money that would ever allow him to do that, to have what he has right now. 28:06 And so to be able to appreciate what we have right now, including our desire to, to have more money and to create XYZ, but it's starting to really look at it through that lens. 28:15 Like, what would you pay in order to come back to this moment? What, what's worth paying for right now? 28:22 But there was no amount of money that he could pay that would bring him back to have these experiences with his sons, 28:28 and that helped put some things into perspective and helped him start to see where the money thing wasn't gonna solve all of the problems. And you can have both, right? But 28:40 I think maybe what I'm kind of getting from what you're describing is, is, is a lot of it is self-awareness, right? Okay, put in perspective, where you can still have the money in retirement, but if that's, 28:54 like, the only thing- For him, he was trading time away from, so he was not being able to- Right... see his kids. He was working so much. Okay. And he was of this thing like, "Well, I'm doing it for these reasons." 29:04 And I was like, "Great. And the cost is you're not able to see your sons." And he was like, "Yes." I was like, "Great. So what would- Right... what would future self pay?" 29:11 But anyway, back to your point, you're exactly right. You can have both. What do you tell those, those guys, like maybe not in this particular client, but that are struggling with, with having both? What's the kind of... 29:24 How do you get them to develop that self-awareness or perspective? Well, I think it's just, are, are, have we bought into a myth that that future version of life is 29:37 going to be all that it's cr- Like, am I buying into this escape plan, this VIP section of life? Is that, is that what that future really means? 29:45 And is it really, creating that future getting in the way of my ability to enjoy what I have now? We don't want that eclipsing our ability to enjoy now. So the idea is it's both. 29:56 It's not hedonism, where I only do what feels good now, and I only care about what, what feels, you know, what's in the moment here. That's not what I'm advocating. 30:04 It's a, an appreciation for our future, but not allowing it to eclipse our present. 30:10 That's what we're up against with so many of us, is that we don't have our present moment because we're so future-focused, or and many of us are stuck in the past, you know, regretting stuff. And so, cool. 30:22 Well, let's think about the p- the, the future that you wanna create, but let's make sure it's not eclipsing what you- what you have right here and right now. 30:30 And that's where a lot of us are gotten s- uh, stuck on this jumping through hoops of get good grades, get the good school, get the good job, get the... 30:38 Like, we're just kinda going hoop to hoop to hoop to hoop, and we don't ever really learn to appreciate what we already have. How much do the re- regrets of the past... 30:50 Is that the same holding us back in a different way, you know, in midlife? Like, okay, well, I'm not gonna take risks because I had this experience in the past. Yeah. And- Could be. Or it could be the opposite. 31:01 Do you- I regret not doing something in the past, so I'm gonna lean in now. And then you over-rotate and, or, or maybe it's a, maybe it's a positive influence, right? Yeah. Maybe it's positive. Yeah. 31:15 Do you find that a common pull on each side of, like, past regrets versus future expectations or outcomes in that middle place is the hard place to kind of align with? 31:28 Not so much past regrets, but past programming, the story we tell about ourselves or the kind of the family dynamic we grew up in. "Oh, that's not just... We don't do that. We don't talk about that. 31:40 We're, we're not those types of people. Um, I'm not that type of guy." And that's where we limit the flaps that we're able to see on the menu for life. It's where we minimize the power we allow ourselves to have. 31:54 If I were to do such a thing, that would upset the apple cart. Um, so there's a lot of ways that we minimize what we even allow ourselves to want because of that, that old programming and playing not to lose. 32:09 Yep, that makes sense. Um, so what is being dangerous now in midlife or in your 50s for you look like? How are you liv- living the dangerous, dangerous life now? I don't know if I live a very dangerous life. 32:20 I, I have- Well, yeah. [laughs] I've been, uh, I've been supremely domesticated. Yeah. Work at... 32:29 I've got a 16-year-old daughter, and my wife and I, uh, are, are very much in, in the, like, last few years with her in the home and, you know, doing as much as we can with her. That's been a... 32:40 Uh, if anything, like, kinda losing my mom at an early age has me kinda hyperaware of, like, you know, have every second, like, it gets in the way. 32:47 It's like, just relax and enjoy her instead of trying to milk every last second with her. You know? Like, I have to work through that. That feels like some- Yeah... 32:55 of the things that I'm, I'm up against and just being, "She's here." Just be with her and, and be present to that. 33:01 Um, and I can, I can sense kind of the end of an era as, as, as we become empty nesters and what that opens up in that regard. Yeah. Uh, so it feels... 33:12 It's a rich time, you know, as I, as I'm making some shifts in the work that I do. It's getting much more deeper and, and then also it feels like I'm heading into a new phase of 33:23 m- m- my life, but, and personally and also professionally, so maybe that's the dangerous part as I sense that transition. But it, it, right now it feels really exciting. Yeah. 33:32 What's some, like, common advice you can give middle-aged men who are kind of feeling some of these traps we talked about? Or what's a starting point for them if they want to feel a little bit more dangerous in midlife? 33:46 I think the first part is to recognize that wanting to be comfortable, wanting certainty, wanting safety, wanting significance and status and importance, that it's okay. 33:59 Like, it, it's, it's natural and it's in our wiring, and that that's not a bad thing. And I think it's important that we appreciate that and we own that instead of demonize it. 34:09 It's really common in this work that we identify the thing that we want and then we villainize the thing that, that doesn't work for us anymore, and I'd rather just like, yeah, comfort and safety and belonging and significance are very, very important to us, 34:25 and I would never advocate that you just kinda throw a grenade in the room and blow anything up. I just think that's silly. Right. That's a, that's not actually growth. That's just being a moron. 34:35 And so, and I've watched some guys do that, like, "I'm selling all my shit and I'm leaving my business and m- marriage," and just, like, these reactivity things. Like, eh, you're not really doing the work. 34:44 You've just run, you've run away from something. Um, and so the first part is just to recognize that that's really important to us, but it doesn't have to be everything to us, and that the more we want comfort... 34:56 Uh, usually, like, the, we're seeking fulfillment without realizing that more comfort and more certainty and more acceptance, we think that that's gonna bring fulfillment when actually it just kinda gives us a baseline. 35:10 Which is why we're like, "Well, I must need to buy more shit," or, "I must need more money," or, "I n- I must need to be more significant," and it just feels more and more empty. It's kinda like eating calories. 35:19 Like, there's only so much you can eat where you're, and then you're just satiated. Eating more doesn't do anything for you, right? Right. So we do need to eat, but you don't need to eat that much. 35:29 Um, and so it just helps to, like, recognize that's a, that's a vital part of our lives, but then ultimately coming back to what do I really want? I love that question. It's a really challenging question. 35:39 Most of us are thinking we've gotta have it all figured out like a plan, but I love to just come back to how do you wanna feel? If you're feeling trapped, then that tells us that you wanna feel more free. 35:51 If you're feeling drained, that feel, that tells us you wanna feel more alive. 35:55 If you're feeling isolated and cut off, then that tells us you wanna have more friendships and connections and a genuine connection with people. Feeling bored, overwhelmed, what does that point to? 36:06 So a lot of guys have not done that work to kinda understand their emotional guidance system. 36:11 But once we start to lay that out, the experiences that they wanna have, then we can just start to think like, "Cool, how could we start to do more of that today? Where could we have a little bit more aliveness today? 36:21 Instead of doing the same workout, let's go jump in the ocean. 36:24 You know, let's, let's, let's figure out a way to get out of the routine where we still sat- we checked the box on ABC, but we did it in a way that just lit up my day." So, um, that's... 36:35 It gets, it gets to be more creative in that way. And how do you pull that out? So, um, that freedom, that aliveness, uh, if you wanna, like... 36:46 It sounds like from what you do, like, coaching is the way to, like, at least help men kind of pull that out of themselves because a lot of us just don't know, "Okay, well, how do I actually figure out what it is that, um, is making me not free or-" Yeah... 37:00 or making, or making me not alive? And, and do you recommend like, okay, well, uh, you know, a group of friends or a coach or something like that as a good starting point? It could be. 37:08 I think it's great to get to work with other people if they're, if you can get on the same page. You can also just write down your complaints. We're really good at bitching and moaning. A lot of us are. I'm great at it. 37:19 [laughs] Me too. [laughs] But if you were to think like you were gonna turn your complaints into requests or turn your complaints into proposals, that complaint 37:29 shows us that there's an, there's something that we want that's not happening. Otherwise, we wouldn't complain. So, if the plane's late, "Fuck, the plane's late," it's, it's like, "Well, oh, I wanna be on time. 37:41 Yeah, that's what I want." Right? 37:43 So it's like just learning to flip the complaint back to what it is that I want instead, and then, okay, now what if I were to focus more on that side of things rather than let me tell you the 20 ways things aren't going well? 37:58 And owning what w- instead of shutting it down, which is what some guys do, is like, "Well, I don't wanna be a complainer and I don't wanna be that, that guy that stinks up the room," it's not about that, but it is about pivoting. 38:09 Oh, let's get curious with that complaint. What's underneath it? Cool. Let's use that. 38:13 And then we start to see that there's a lot of things that we're wanting in our lives, and maybe there's some low-hanging fruit that we can start to work with. 38:22 So an easy starting point is just getting curious about the things that are, you know, triggering us or we're complaining about. 38:30 Um, so that's like the easy starting point, and there's also the coaching, um, a men's group, right? Um, do you still work in, work with men's groups or... I have not participated. No, I haven't done that. 38:41 I haven't led groups in, in a few years. Um, a matter- Okay... I've actually got a, a couple guys that I'm working with to help them start groups. So, uh, but yeah. Oh. I've gotta get, get back into that. Yeah. Yeah. 38:54 It seems like they're a good, good place for, for men to go, especially now with, there's a lot of issues with loneliness and stuff like you and I talked about before. But, um, okay, man. 39:03 Well, I think we can wrap up there. Um, so I know folks can find you, newmanpodcast.com, right? That's where your podcast is. Tons of good guests on there. Um, and then triplenear.com. 39:14 Are you still coaching now or receiving men? And- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, if you wanna learn more about the coaching that I do, you can go to triplenear.com. Okay. 39:23 Any, any parting words or anything you wanna leave folks with? 39:27 Uh, well, I appreci- I wanna just take a minute to appreciate you and the work you're doing and the fact that you wanna take your time and energy to try and help people in your life like this. 39:35 Um, when I started podcasting back in 2007, like, it was weird to have men talking about stuff like this. And so the fact that- Right... 39:44 there are just so many guys like you that are willing to pick it up and put the effort and the time into it, it's normalizing things that, you know, w- kind of getting rid of this bullshit cowboy image of, of men. 39:56 And it doesn't... And, and, and also just kicking to the curb this idea that we're all powerless or victims or anything and just coming back to like, "No, we want more. We want something better for our lives." 40:04 And, um, and so I just love that. I love seeing guys like you get in the game and, and, and spread the word the way you are, so thank you for doing that. 40:13 Well, well, thanks for saying that, and obviously standing on the shoulders of giant, of a giant right in front of me, so. [laughs] Oh. You, you kind of paved the way for a lot of that. 40:21 Um- I'm gonna call my wife and daughter in. I want you to say that again, okay? [laughs] All right, man. Well, thanks for, uh, thanks for your time, and we will wrap up here. Thanks, Jonathan. Appreciate it. 40:31 Thanks for joining us today. My name is Jonathan. This is Against the Fade. Don't fade.
